Kali - Staffie, Bitch (1-2 Years)

I read this a while ago and just didn't know what to say. I really hope she gets punished by the police, because that is just horrific. I really hope Kali continues to shine because she sounds like a beautiful and friendly little Staffie. Hope it hasn't scared her or your daughters too much either.

To Kali & her family....How terribly distressing this must have been to you all, my heart goes out to your daughters having to witness such shocking abuse of your beloved pet Kali, I am sure with your love & kindness she will recover as she is such a super little girl & knows you love her very much, your daughters may take longer, it is all totally unacceptable...One good thing is the woman sounds very distinctive if anyone sees her again it may be worth keeping her in sight & seeing if they come to Burlish by car, if they can take the registration number it would give the police something to go on.

Please please don't be put off having adopted your girl, since fostering Robbie (another sweetie) I too have been given a wide berth by some & have seen mothers clutch their children & turn away BUT I have also met people who have fussed & taken delight in his sunny personality & have not believed that a Staffy can be dog & people friendly.

I am sure through the forum this woman will be found & hopefully well punished for her shocking behaviour & hugs to Kali & your daughters.

Thanks Nina and Jesses Mum for your kind words of support. I just wish others could give Kali and us the opportunity to prove how lovely she is! Sadly this is not to be as just this morning I decided to get my daughter back out with Kali to start to rebuild her confidence but I am sad to say that we had no sooner entered the field by the woods when we had another bad experience, so it's not just because my daughter is a teenager it is definitely a Staffie prejudice.

Kali had been following my commands to stay close and wait and I accept that Kali's excitement to participate in the play of 3 dogs meant that she ignored my recall but 3 out of 4 dogs were off the lead and we couldn't see that there was one on a lead, presumably because she had issues with other dogs. (The owner had decided there was a problem before Kali even got to them). Whilst the two owners did not invite her to join in they didn't ask me to keep her away either, and she was so excited to join in the fun that I couldn't get her on the lead quick enough. The woman drew so much attention to herself that Kali couldn't misunderstood that she was trying to keep her away, she thought it was a game and the more the woman walked around the harder it was for us get hold of Kali. We have been working hard to stop Kali running up to people and dogs but it's all very well training Kali the recall techniques but if she is not allowed to practice them in a social arena what else can I do? She is going to make mistakes these things don't happen overnight.

What I find frustrating is that if I walk her with next doors King Charles or we walk along with someone we have met on route the reaction we get is completely different!

I think the problem is that some of these walkers have established groups, often half a dozen owners with a couple of dogs walk the same area every day and its their territory! We later saw these people in a large group tearing around another field which I have to say I have found intimidating when I have unexpectedly come across them and their dogs approached us in exactly the same way as Kali had!!!

So once again, we have been subjected to the verbal abuse and my endeavour to restore my daughters faith was shot out of the water. The camp appears to be split down the middle - she is either detested on sight or welcomed. So if anyone knows a more welcoming environment where we can happily walk Kali off the lead please let us know because on the one hand I feel like throwing in the towel and that the woods on our doorstep just isn't worth the hassle. On the other hand ... why should I back down, Kali is not a dangerous dog, her only faults are her over excitement, immaturity and a belief that she will be liked by others. I will have to persevere because these owners need an education and to see that if they give her a chance they might actually see beyond the excitable toddler and discover for themselves what a loving, gentle and trusting soul she really is.

So sorry for ranting, I am just so fed up with it. For now I will have to put Kali on the lead whenever we see a dog in the distance until I gauge owners reactions.

Well we are off to the pet shop to buy a whistle now, going to try and train Kali to come back to that when she gets over excited.

Thanks for your support xxx

Not at all my pleasure. I am afraid that I do not live near enough to suggest other walks but as you say Why should you back down....Just a suggestion, I also have a GSD who often gets the same reaction ..she runs to other dogs barks & then runs back (she is a total wuss) she plays really well when she knows them but if we walk somewhere different I put her on her washing line(long rope) keep her in my sights & if she sets off to other dogs we can stamp on the end & gently draw her back with out shouting & yelling her name, & then have introductions in a more controlled manner, it seems that others are more accepting of this & as you say once they see she is harmless if a little goofy they are much better next time if she approaches them....I have been known to tie a Tesco bag onto the end in long grass..you get strange looks & sniggers but Who Cares..my dogs safe lol

Disgusting...i am so sorry that your beautiful girls including kali have been subjected to the ignorance and brutality of humans at their worst....i will pray for your daughters and kalis confidence to be restored...take heart that you are not the only one to suffer from this prejudice....it is all fear based....thousands of owners across this country are going through the same thing.....it isnt widespread but it is there nevertheless....You are in the right and a normal dog walker would not react in such a silly spiteful way....you are not at fault...their ignorance is..please dont spend too much time trying to rectify what is their problem....

Thank you all for your support.
We have had a few tears, more out of frustration than anything because if these people just look past her over-enthusiastic approach and give her a chance they too would see that Kali just wants to say hi, play and be on her way.
Hopefully time and training will be the cure, Kali will mature in her approach and the walkers may mellow a little.
Our love for Kali is greater that our despair of their ignorance and she added so much to our lives, so we'll soldier on, and hopefully slowly chip away at their intolerance.
We are so grateful if not a little overwhelmed by your lovely words of support and encouragement, thank you again for your support.
The Carrier family xxx

Hi Jesses mum,
You and I have had similar thoughts - I had earlier said that we needed to recall Kali without using her name because I am beginning to wonder if these cliques of walkers are latching onto a name and using it to scare monger!
As an immediate solution I think the idea of the long rope trailing along behind her is a good one, suggestions for an extending lead had been made but I still felt that she was being punished for others intolerance, the rope would be more discreet and Kali would continue to have freedom whilst we would have greater control in her approach to unfamiliar or hostile walkers. Thank you for for sharing your idea, wish us luck, we are going to trial it this afternoon.


to all the fdr support network xxx

Good Luck & it is a great way of keeping fit, never underestimate how fast Kali can go

Hi,

Trying hard to keep the emotion out of this and just suggest places to visit where the welcome is different. My Daughter has two huskies and at times receives the same abuse. Their way of handling this is to take the dogs for a walk attached to their bikes, if this isn't possible, they walk at Habberley Valley, beautiful walk and all types welcome there and the best of all is the dog run at Borrington Road Comberton, owners squash onto the one bench, swop stories, a few FDR owners there and at least two other huskies. Over the Rifle Range is also good, off Sutton Park Road and of corse the forest, by The Running Horse, plenty of FDR dogs there! Dreadful that you feel you can't walk in your chosen area and these people call themselves dog lovers. Shame on them

Horrified to hear of your daughter's experience. So much prejudice against these loving dogs. Just walked Ben in Bromsgrove park with my daughter and her two Springers normally all good friends, but Ben and Millie had a fight over a ball. It was soon over, but the reaction by others was plain to see. Ben's recall is good if he's not distracted and I find a squeaky toy in my pocket grabs his attention. Habberley Valley is good, plenty of space, Hope to see you up there sometime.Just enjoy your lovely dog, and as my old Mom used to say " Sod 'em " .

we occassionally walk the dogs on burlish top having 3 big lurchers and a staffie prob un nerves a few folk..i tend to leave milly my staff on the lead til im absolutely sure know one is a round(so im constantly scanning the area) one reason for her being on a lead is because theres too many folk that walk their dogs round there now and i know that some see staffies as dangerous so i cant be doing with the attitudes and the ignorance they may give..when in fact some little dogs come up to mine and give her grief! therefore i tend to walk in the wyre forest (more space)or even down by the river along the switch backs to stourport( think its called the country park) half way between bewdley and the bewdley town football club..its very quiet there with lots of space to run and play ball..my dogs love it!! im really sorry tht yr family and pooch suffered abuse and hope they never encounter this kind of behaviour again! theres a few of us that meet up now and then to walk our dogs- your more than welcome to join us! x

Hi folks,

Thank you to Annie and Elka for your support.
Elka, I agree with you that part of the problem is overcrowding and some 'established' walkers and their 'cliques' are quite territorial making it clear that they feel they should have precedence over us 'lesser' individuals. If I spot you over there I will come and say "Hi" because I think we know each other in connection with where I work.
Annie, your Mum's approach appears to be sound, I have done everything I can do and as you discovered today you cannot plan for every indiscretion or change others opinion and ignorance. So I am just going to continue to enjoy the time I share with Kali on our walks and hope that those who don't like us, avoid us!
Thanks for the walk suggestions, we have been on some of these and will try out the others when we fancy a long walk and will persevere with the before work walk. Well, I am off to meet a fellow fdr adopter for a quiet walk elsewhere tomorrow, I think the change will do us good and hopefully we can head off without the anxiety we have had these last 24 hours.
On a positive note we have been advised where a woman fitting the description works and hopefully the Police with use the info to pay her a visit and prick her conscience! Incidentally, I was also told that the dog she walks is also a Staffie and its never on a lead - pot ,kettle ... This begs the question, is it my dog or hers she doesn't trust?

You have all been wonderful and we appreciate all of the advice and support, its great to belong to such a caring community. A massive THANK YOU to all xxx

Sadly the public are encouraged to be anti-dog and some are very easily swayed without knowing anything at all about dogs. It would be a very empty world without their love, companionship and devotion. I'm sure with your support and love Kali will recover, it is much harder for yourselves to regain your confidence and to be able to trust others when you're out with Kali. Dont let them ruin the bond between you that is far more special then anything these ignorant people can throw at you. We had 2 serious incidents with our dog. when he was young he was attacked by uncontrolled dogs that were in packs with no owners in sight.
My confidence was shattered and I am always now very aware of whats around us when we're out. It shouldn't have to be like this but nearly 8 years on its still feels un-nerving. I use a lunge lead which is quite strong or fasten two ordinary long leads together. Please, please dont do what I did and allow this attack to intimdate you and your family. Kali needs you and your family, no-one else matters Enjoy her company she is an absolute darling xxx

Forest Dog Rescue Did anyone find the woman? Not sure if this is her, but I have just been in to Tesco Express on Stourport Road (next to Foley Fish Bar) and I was served by a short woman aged 50s with short black wavy hair and a bright red fringe. Her name is Lisa. She matches the description but might help if someone who knows what she looks like to go to in see if it is the same person. Cindy

What an awful experience.

I can recommend Hurcott Woods for walks, really nice environment. I take Daisy there most of the time because she gets a bit over excited in any places where there are lots of rabbits (most other local walking areas). Daisy is part Staffy and I see lots of Staffs down there. It seems to be used by sensible and knowledgeable dog owners. I have never had any issues there. I would be more than happy to walk round there with you at some point if that will help build some confidence in the area

Daisy is also very enthusiastic. I have attempted to train her to return to a dog whistle and it does work most of the time. She is young and still learning and she doesn't get it right all the time and neither do I.

I can't help but feel that this woman would not have behaved in this way if it wasn't young girls walking Kali, I wonder if this was some kind of power game, act of bullying as much as anything...it was after all a very cowardly act.

I hope things get better...

Hi all,

First, a big thanks to Sandy for your company and support yesterday. Beautiful, peaceful place to walk and a few more visits should help reinstall our confidence.

Thanks Jesses mum, another walker suggested that this woman worked in Tesco Express, and I don't want to point a finger but ... The other interesting fact was she walks a brown Staffie and it's always off the lead and she carries it around a lot. So, maybe her dog is young and she's being a little over protective. Still doesn't excuse what she did.

We have been on a few walks up there since and I have to say that, with the exception of my husband, our confidence in ourselves, Kali and the walkers has been dented. I can feel my anxiety building the nearer we get and even walking with a friend in another area I found I wasn't as relaxed as I used to be and worrying about everyone we met. This isn't fair on Kali, I know she can sense it and I am trying hard to overcome it.

Thanks for your suggestion Lucy going to give it a try tomorrow. I too thought it was because the girls had taken her but there are quite a few teenagers who their walk their dogs alone over there without issue and I suffered similar abuse the following morning when she tried to join in with other loose dogs on the field.

Hey ho, onward and upward, get my housework finished and we're off to try again.

HUGE thank you once again for your support.

Hurcott is great, often go up there with Ben. I'm always aware that Ben is a Staffie cross and I will get looks from others. You really should walk with my daughter, she gets so cross with me, and orders me to ignore everyone and walk on. I'm sure our confidence or lack of it is transmitted to the dogs, as she looks after Ben when we go away and never has any problems with him. I tend to call him if there are other dogs quite close and distract him with squeaky toy, which works for him, but my daughter just lets him get on with it and he reacts much better.

Hi all,

Just letting you know how we're getting on. We have been training Kali with a 'Clix', a combined whistle and clicker which helps in conditioning dogs recall. I am pleased to say she is making progress. Yesterday, we headed out for a quiet walk, fairly late in the day (so as to avoid the masses)and without any distraction Kali came back to the whistle each time. When she heard some voices in the woods close by she trotted off to investigate , Kali didn't come to the first whistle but the second whistle did pull up and she came back quicker than she might otherwise have done. So some progress is being made although the real test will be when we come across other dogs and the excitement to join in kicks in - but its early days, we will keep up the training.

I am happy to report that because it was so quiet we were able to relax a bit more and our anxiety levels dropped enough for us to take some pleasure out of our walk again.

Sue x

Hi all,

Been for a really lovely walk this evening, met a lady who is a 'dog charmer' and she invited us to walk with her and her dogs. Kali got on really well with them and we got lots of helpful training hints,tips and demonstrations. Confirmation that we have been using the Clix Whizzclick effectively has given our confidence a real boost and the helpful fine tuning of these skills can only make things easier for us all. Kali responded well and continued to do so after we parted company. We had several opportunities to test them out and all were successful. It's work in progress but all the work we have been putting in on improving the recall is really starting to pay off and our confidence in our own abilities is being restored.

Everyone we met was friendly, polite and considerate and at no time did we feel like the 'newbies' intruding on someone else's patch. But newbies to the area we are and we did manage to lose our way a little and spent a little longer than planned on our walk whilst we retraced our steps to find our way back to the car. My sense of direction is not the greatest! The only downside to our new found peace is that Kali appears to have a touch of travel sickness hopefully this will resolve itself with regular short runs in the car.

Earlier tonight I received a phone call from the police enquiring how I got the information about 'the woman', I explained about the forum and the officer said that everyone's detective work has paid off and they have her full name and address and will pay her a visit. We wouldn't have got this far without this wonderful community and so, once again I am sending you heartfelt for all your help and support.

Sue & Kali

Hi there Sue,

Brilliant to hear things are getting better, and I'm so glad you're finding the forum so supportive. Nothing like a good support network to get you through the tough times, and they will get better (even if we have form a gang and go and smack the woman over the head and see if she can take it as well as she dishes it out!).

I wonder if you have thought of using a training lead and just dropping it so it trails behind Kali when you're out on your walks? We use one for Tucker when we are in areas with a lot of people walking dogs. It gives him the freedom of running around, but we know we can just stamp on the lead if we see anyone coming towards us. I also find them really useful to enforce the stop and wait commands. There's nothing worse when you get filled with anxiety and you end running around trying to catch your dog to put them back on the lead, whilst they play up to your worst nightmare, and become the elusive dodger, and you get the tuts of disapproving people as you chase the dog around their legs. I have a number of different trailing leads depending on where I'm taking him. I have made up some from just cord and a clip if we are going to the forest where he might go into water, and I need the lead to dry quickly. Alternatively you can buy them in various lengths from any pet shop, usually red, black or blue one inch wide webbed material. I find the 10 metre one sufficient. It just gives you peace of mind while you keep up Kali's recall training.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20FT-DOG-TRAINING-LONG-LEAD-LINE-RECALL-TRACKING-/200622852978?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs&var=&hash=item746b851fa5

Hi Ria,

I like your thinking and I really don't know how I have managed to control my urge to visit this woman! Probably because I know it would make matters much worse for all involved and at the end of the day there may be occasions when our paths cross in the future!

Thanks for your advice, several people on the forum suggested a training lead/rope/washing line and I purchased one at the weekend. The lovely lady I met this evening made a few suggestions about how to make it more user friendly and gave some advice on how best to use it. After tonight's walk I don't feel there's much need to use it in our new walking location (though it is in the backpack to use if I think it's busy and the stakes are higher!) but I will definitely be using it in our local woods/fields where temptation is so high because of the concentration of dogs/owners/walkers/joggers/cyclists in a fairly small area.

Hope Tucker is doing well, he's a lovely looking chappie. We tend to think of him as a kennel mate to Kali because they were up for adoption around the same time, don't think he'd have been with you long when we started looking at fdr and we read all about him on the forum.

Take care, Sue x

One word of warning when using a trailing lead in wooded areas or areas where there is lots of undergrowth....

Be prepared to go in after your dog.

Phoebe sometimes wraps the lead around a tree or some dense bracken and so gets stuck so we have to go and get her untangled. Fortunately, when she gets stuck she barks so we know where she is, its also a special bark that we have recognised she makes when she is stuck.

Tucker had MANY problems, but after so much help from Kate and the intensive training programme that he is on, his only one area that is not good is his car travel, and that's the same for a lot of dogs. The only problem with Tucker is that his anxiety in the car puts him in that red zone where unintentionally he can lose control. The one good thing has always been his interaction with other dogs and his recall.

The thing that bothers me is not him, it's the people who can't get the recall on their own dogs and allow them to come bounding up to him from a major distance, and don't make any attempt to train their dogs, unlike the effort you are putting in with Kali. Although Tucker's not a problem, I have fostered dogs in the past where an approaching uncontrolled dog was a MAJOR problem. I think, and rightly so, a lot of people get annoyed when a dog approaches them off lead at speed because they have dogs that are not friendly. I can understand this, because I once had 35kgs of Weimaraner that would go into meltdown if a dog approached us off lead and he was on the lead, and he would rear up and thrash about (fortunately Kate, the behaviourist, helped me with him too). Once, when I had a staffie that I never trusted to let off lead, it happened and a lady, who couldn't get control of her dog to recall him, shouted, "It's okay, he's friendly!", but when he came bounding up, my dog went nuts, and then her dog went nuts too, and we had a nasty fight that was hard to separate because she couldn't catch her dog to put him back on the lead. I wasn't rude to her, but I left her in no uncertain terms that she needed more recall on her dog, because no matter how friendly she thinks he was with other dogs, you cannot always predict what will happen. Fortunately, she could see first hand that her dog was in there too and the fighting wasn't all one sided. You have to appreciate other peoples' fears when this happens. It can be really scary, and does completely change the level of enjoyment on a walk. Add a staffie storming towards some people to the mix, and immediately it's ten times worse, because I'm sure if it was a Yorkshire Terrier they'd be going, "Oh don't worry! It's okay!"

Whatever Kali does, no-one has the right to hit a dog and that woman is totally despicable. Although I have had nothing but positive experiences with the staffies I've fostered, I am always on my guard that people don't understand the breed, so I will always put a trailing lead on Tucker because it doesn't impede his fun in any way.

Ha! Ha! I just went to post this and saw Phil's response! Yes, Phoebe has wrapped the lead on a few occasions, but she is working terrier stock, so is always in the undergrowth trying to find rabbits. She also goes back and forth in the undergrowth really fast. We have a 50 foot lunge lead in the garden that we stake out so that she can play but not escape, and if you could see the pattern of her travels around the garden it would highly amuse you. She never retraces her steps!! If we throw Tucker's ball and it lands in the undergrowth, he sits there waiting for you to go in and get it for him, with that, "But it's prickly in there and I might scratch my skin!" look on his face! He is definitely not one to get tangled

Thanks for the warning Phil, when out walking off the lead Kali rarely disappears out of our eye sight (we have successfully taught her how far ahead she is allowed to walk) so we should be able to see if there are any difficulties. I truly hope this remains the case because she very rarely barks! Even when she lets herself into the study and cannot open the door to get out! (I am sure she would let us know if she was in trouble).

I agree 100% with your comments about the recall Ria. I fully appreciate how it feels to have a dog powering their way towards you, friendly or otherwise and having been in similar situation I appreciate the issue from both sides. Its still early days in Kali's training and despite the mistake on this occasion we can only continue to practice the techniques by exposing Kali to a variety of distractions and social environments and learn from both positive and negative experiences.

On the car sickness front, Kali is very calm in the car but is sick if she travels in the hatchback or on the back seat. Is there a magic cure or should I just continue with the regular, short journeys in the hope she will get over it?

Hubby took Kali out today and I am happy to say that all went very well, her recall was very good again.

We have had a dog that was always sick on winding car journeys if she had eaten up to 2 hours previously. Fine on straight runs, but anything with bends and she would puke. With Tucker, he isn't sick, but he is very, very anxious. You can tell the level of his anxiety by the lip licking and yawning with very loud sound effects. I have actually found that often the lower in the car he is, the better. Would it be possible to put a bed in the footwell and see how she gets on there? It could be the motion sickness brought on by moving scenery. Worth a try just to gauge her reaction.